On today’s episode of the 5 Things podcast: A new VR game called “Barnstormers, Determined to Win” takes users back to the 1940’s as baseball players in the Negro Leagues. The game’s focus throws a spotlight on a difficult time in history for people of color and aims to build empathy. USA TODAY National Political Correspondent Phillip M. Bailey speaks with the creator of the game, associate professor of Media Arts Design Technology at North Carolina State University Derek Ham about why he chose this time in history and how he hopes players will absorb the experience.
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Phillip M. Bailey:
Hello, and welcome to Five Things. I’m Phillip M. Bailey, a national political correspondent for USA Today. It’s Sunday, May 28th, 2023.
A new VR game called Barnstormers: Determined to Win transports gamers to the 1940s as baseball players in the Negro Leagues. The game throws a spotlight on a difficult time in history for people of color.
Through immersion in the Negro Leagues, the game aims to share two things.
First, the triumphant experience of so many of its ball players who earned hard fought recognition for their talent, but it also aims to give gamers the experience of discrimination that ball players were forced to endure.
In doing both, the game aims to develop its players’ ability to empathize.
Today we’re speaking to the game’s creator, Derek Ham, a department head and associate professor of Media Arts Design and Technology at North Carolina State University.
Can VR tap into the emotional experience of its players to create transformative change?
Derek, thanks for joining us.
Derek Ham:
Thank you so much.
Phillip M. Bailey:
For those who aren’t familiar, during Jim Crow segregation, this was an entirely separate league created for African-Americans since they weren’t allowed to play in the major or minor leagues with white players, obviously until Jackie Robinson famously broke the color barrier.
I should tell listeners that, as an African-American, it wasn’t strange for me to look at this historically. Derek, I’m sure, as you know, we’re pretty familiar with African-American history. And I was taught this history both in school, but also by my parents and grandparents.
But for those who aren’t African-American, it is definitely something I think is notable.
What gave you the idea, first of all, to use the Negro Leagues as a storytelling mechanism?
Derek Ham:
One of the things that I’ve been really interested in is expanding the historical narrative beyond what I call the bullet points that we like to do.
One of my first VR pieces was called I’m a Man, and it was centered on the Memphis Sanitation Workers’ Strike.
And you look at something like that and you’re just like, “Oh, Dr. King, he was assassinated at the Lorraine Motel.” But then if you ask the next layer of questions, “Well, why was he in Memphis in the first place?”, a lot of people don’t know, “Oh, the Poor People’s Campaign”, a lot of people don’t know, “The Sanitation Workers’ Strike.”
And I was thinking about, what are these other historical moments where we think we know part of the narrative, but we’re missing so much more?
And you look at the story of baseball and how it was integrated, and Jackie Robinson, yes, being the first. All you have to do is to scratch the surface just a little bit and you’ll find the name Larry Doby who crossed that line in the very same year.
And I’m like, “Why aren’t we talking about these other players that Jackie played with before he came to the majors?” And I think it’s part of that simplification of the history.
We can use technology to tell these stories, but not just the same stories that we know. Let’s expand the narrative.
Phillip M. Bailey:
My grandparents were born in the 1910s and 1920s, so for them … Because it wasn’t just, with the Negro Leagues, we think about the players. All the bat boys, the press that was covering the Negro Leagues at the time, the concession stands. It was an entirely different universe of a professional league of players.
… Who were exceptional players. I think Josh Gibson hit how many home runs compared to Babe Ruth, right?
Even sometimes I think it’s difficult for me to even say the Negro Leagues versus the Major Leagues, like it’s this higher plateau of competition in sport, when a lot of those Negro League players would’ve dusted those Major League baseball players back in their time.
Derek Ham:
Yeah. Everything you’ve said about Josh Gibson and some of these players, you know, when you start looking at the stories, swag is ancient. These guys played the game differently. They played it with what we would call today’s swag. They played it with an understanding of the crowd wants entertainment and athleticism.
And so some of the things that you see today in today’s modern day sports era, these guys have been doing it. And so it’s something that’s rich and beautiful about the culture.
Phillip M. Bailey:
Right.
Derek Ham:
It’s not just about the scores, it’s about the aesthetics of the sport too, and stadiums packed out full of black and brown people in their Sunday’s best.
And those are some of the snapshots that I try to teleport you to in this experience.
Phillip M. Bailey:
Why, for example, didn’t you take the Jackie Robinson experience, who played in basically exclusively the white Brooklyn Dodgers his first year, his rookie year, why didn’t you take someone like his experience, which is far more well known? Why is the player in the VR game more of this anonymous player who could be any Negro League ball player at the time?
Derek Ham:
I’ve been inspired by a lot of different sources. The Negro League Baseball Museum obviously is at the top of them. I went up to Kansas City and met the museum director, Bob Kendrick, who’s extremely supportive of this project and allowed me to even use the licensing and the rights of some of these teams.
And so when you hear these narratives, and again, these are these hidden stories of these people, I found this so much more important, because we’ll keep on seeing Jackie, Jackie, Jackie.
And yes, he was so influential in being the first and being the right demeanor, if you will, to be that first person to come in, but that only is the tip of the iceberg.
Phillip M. Bailey:
That’s what I appreciate about your game, brother. Because we forget, when Jackie Robinson integrates Major League baseball, that destroys the rest of the Negro Leagues, because it wasn’t like they also integrated Negro League managers.
Let’s hop into the DeLorean real fast and go to the present day with an incident that occurred recently with an Oakland A’s announcer, who uttered the most anti-black racial slur that there is, referring to a visit he made to the Negro Leagues baseball museum in Kansas City like yourself.
How is it this kind of thing still happens from your viewpoint, right? I mean, it’s not shocking for me, but is there an admission that the American experiment has fallen short or even failed from Dr. King’s dream?
Derek Ham:
I think part of the issue is … Well, I look at the friends I have who aren’t African-American, the ones who I’m a hundred percent comfortable around. This is comfort in community.
I think we still live in this era of a time where people aren’t sharing their lives with each other, and so people are seen as the other. We haven’t spent time, we haven’t had meals, we haven’t been to birthday parties, and so you’re not connected with that community.
And so you’re going to fill in the gap with any lie that’s been told to you over time. You’re going to allow those stereotypes to take root. We’re not crossing those lines, and then that’s when all that hate and stuff comes in.
And so I still love this American spirit from the lens of sports, because ultimately, we’ve seen through history, there’s a bonding experience from a fan side and from a player side that can model out for America, “Come together for these other reasons. Come together to champion your team together. But please don’t stop in the stadiums and the bars and the pubs. Take that same attitude of love off the field.”
From Barnstormers’ perspective, there was moments where it’s like, “Well, you were just rooting for me a moment ago. Then why, when I’m on the road in this bus, can’t I go and use a bathroom in that gas station?”
And so there’s still this kind of really interesting thing where some of the same people who will root and be excited for the contemporary players that you see today, haven’t spent that personal time with these communities and will then walk out and just carry on the same biases.
Phillip M. Bailey:
Hmm-mm.
One news outlet wrote that Barnstorming allows players to experience the triumphs and the discrimination of Negro League baseball.
Again, witnessing how it’s played … And I’ve played with VR before, it can be a bit overwhelming initially when you put those goggles on and you’re in this virtual reality world.
Watching it the way that I did though made me think of a couple of things.
I’m experiencing what a Negro League player would’ve experienced, but I’m living in a brain that was born in 1984; not like my grandfather, who was born in 1917.
But also, who is the target audience that you want playing this game? I think we all will have different experiences playing it.
I noticed the video that I watched, when the Negro League player in the gas station was being accosted, the guy balls his fists up a little bit. And how do you explain to folks who want to go through this process of the triumphs and the discrimination that they’re going to see in this game?
Derek Ham:
The one thing that I love that virtual reality can do as opposed to other forms of storytelling is that transporting you into that body.
If you had the headset on, you would look down, and you and I both being black men, it would be a no-brainer that, “Oh, okay, my hand and my skin tone matches who I am.” But if you are not African-American, you look down and you’re like, “Whoa, my hands are black.” And that is super jarring for non-black players to look down and say, “I’m trapped in this skin, in this body.”
That’s that first moment that makes you reflect that the American experience is different for different people. I think for a white player, they’re going to look down and they’re going to wrestle with, “Wait a second, being black in America in the forties, being black in America in these early parts of segregation … “
I went to do a project when I was exploring this term ’empathy.’.
We talk about empathy being like, “Oh, you experience the feelings of someone else.” Well, oftentimes, when we look at empathy and feelings of someone else, we always go to pain and suffering. And I’m like, “Well, why should that be the only empathetic feeling that I have?”
Phillip M. Bailey:
Hmm.
Derek Ham:
A feeling could be joy and triumph.
And so I wanted to have an experience where I felt like a hero. And for a black man to play this sport, you’re going to be like, “Man, they are cheering for me.”
There are moments where you need to feel like the hero and reflect on your ancestors saying they were heroes within their communities too. They were loved and cherished.
Phillip M. Bailey:
Would you agree that one of the first places and spaces that an African-American person was given praise for their merit from whites was in sport? Right? There’s no other place that I can think of historically where white people would gather to see an African-American do something and praise it. Right?
Because in other contexts, during that same time period, when a white crowd gathers and you’re African-American, that’s trouble.
Derek Ham:
Right.
Phillip M. Bailey:
That’s usually a race riot or a lynching.
Derek Ham:
Yes.
Phillip M. Bailey:
Historically speaking.
So there is an aspect, I think, to your game … And another part I wanted to ask you about while watching it is the game versus movie aspect of it.
It feels like this VR experience is more like a movie than a [inaudible 00:10:55].
Derek Ham:
It is.
Phillip M. Bailey:
Was that by design?
Derek Ham:
That is by design.
So the status of VR today is, yes, you have a big gaming market, but there’s still a cinematic market where it’s about storytelling.
This project was featured last year at Cannes Festival, one of the oldest film festivals in the world.
I think there will be a future where we’ll start to see the blend between the two versus the shorter cinematic experience that I have, which is mine is around 17 minutes. And I think that’s just the future of putting the right pieces as a business model to make something make sense, so that you get the narrative and then you get potentially longer innings and a longer play mechanic.
Phillip M. Bailey:
Again, global leaders, from the Dalai Lama to the former CEO of LinkedIn, Jeff Weiner, to former president Barack Obama, they all talk about empathy a lot, right? How it’s a critical social skill.
Do you believe that we are born with empathy or that it’s something that we have to teach each other?
Derek Ham:
I definitely think it’s something that we have to teach each other to go beyond the spheres. Right?
So if you’re in within your circle, let’s say a family, it’s easier to feel the empathy around those who’ve shown you love and you’re around.
You think about those circles. What’s your community? Your family, your extended family, your ethnic group.
Are you able then to move beyond those circles into empathy beyond those?
It’s like I’m only sharing these emotions and feelings with the people within my family, within my tribe, within my clique. How do you do that for the other?
And that’s where I think it has to be learned.
Phillip M. Bailey:
Right.
Derek Ham:
I want to touch real quick on what you just said about that empathy though.
I think there are people who, going back to all the range of emotions, I would daresay even for empathy towards the African-American experience in the US, there might be people who it’s easier for them to share, it’s like, “Oh, I feel your suffering and pain, but then as soon as you see the success, the swagger, the money, are you excited and clapping … ?
Like in the black community, when someone wins, we’re clapping, like, “Yeah, that man did it.” Are you sharing that same love and happiness for that? Because that’s empathy too.
Phillip M. Bailey:
I was thinking leading up to today’s conversation with you about my journey with video games, right? Playing Sonic the Hedgehog and Sega Genesises in the early nineties. And just the cartridges and you had to … Like if you overplayed the game, you had to blow it out with dust if you got too much dust in it.
Just the transformation of that technology and how quickly it grew with me and my generation.
Where do you see the future of this technology? Do you see a world where biology and technology become more integrated?
I’m seeing some of these conventions, people having their cell phones basically on their arm, right?
Where do you see VR going in the next 10, 15 years, and beyond?
Derek Ham:
Yeah.
Well, for immersive technology, I see it going much more communal, much more experiences that are built to be shared with multiple people, and also experiences that allow you to leave your house and experience them in the world.
I see a future where you’ll be in the stands and get to watch a real Field of Dreams. I do see the future of us having the technology to go to a stadium and, as a crowd of people, to see a simulation of the legends on the field shared with fans in the stadium together.
VR’s first iteration has been very isolating, but now with mixed reality, with AR, with other new technology coming out, we’ll come back to the shared experiences; being out in the real world and also sharing those things with each other so we can laugh and experience it just as fluid as we would going to see live performers.
Phillip M. Bailey:
Maybe to see Satchel Paige strike out Babe Ruth or something like that, right?
Derek Ham:
There we go.
Phillip M. Bailey:
Okay.
Are you worried, Derek, about artificial intelligence and how it might influence game design in a way that further entrenches systemic racism or any other problems that our society and civilization have?
I know what you just said a moment ago about us sort of gathering in this virtual Socratic square, right? But we’re going to bring the problems of the real world into that virtual world.
Are you worried at all about AI and how it might change or influence game design such as yours?
Derek Ham:
I’m not worried. I’m aware of it. I do see the potential danger for that to happen. But I’m not worried. If anything, I’m optimistic that AI as a tool building will enable more people to make content and to do different things.
Take, for instance, just what I did with Barnstormers. I was able to take the avatar of Josh Gibson, and working with the Gibson Foundation, Sean Gibson, the great grandson [inaudible 00:15:51], “Hey, this is yours.” And so now he has this asset, he has this digital avatar of Josh Gibson that I said, “Hey, I feel this is yours.”
You won’t see Getty Images doing that. They’re not giving back the photos of families.
But for me, as a new content maker, I’m telling a foundation, “Here’s content and you can play with it.”
And so I start thinking about, how can we bridge the gap between some of the smaller foundations and families who want to preserve their histories, but don’t have the tools? AI could be an assistive tool to allow them to keep their history alive and do things in a powerful way.
So I’m excited of what the AI is bringing as far as tool ease and the ability for people to make content themselves and not rely on outside systems to do it for them.
Phillip M. Bailey:
Hmm.
Derek Ham:
I’ll just say it closes the gap. It will close the gap on who can make and who can’t make.
Phillip M. Bailey:
Professor Derrick Ham, thank you for joining us here.
Derek Ham:
Thank you so much.
Phillip M. Bailey:
Let us know what you think of this episode by sending us a note at podcasts@usatoday.com.
Thanks to Shannon Ray Green and Laura Beatty for producing this episode. And thank you for listening to USA Today’s Five Things.